For sellers
The rules, in public
Everything a listed supplier agrees to, what it costs them, and exactly how the checking works. It's long because it's the whole deal — and it's published because a standard nobody can read isn't a standard, it's a sticker.
Just here to buy firewood? You don't need this page. The directory is the one you want, and what a cord should cost is the other.
One
Three rungs, and
you pick which one
You do not have to let a stranger onto your yard to get anything out of this site. The middle rung is a promise you make and we publish. The top rung is a promise somebody checks. All three cost nothing for the 2026–27 season, and the bottom rung costs nothing whether you ever speak to us or not.
| On your row | Listed | Guaranteed | Verified |
|---|---|---|---|
| Business name, town, phone | Yes | Yes | Yes |
| What you advertise, in your own words | Yes | Yes | Yes |
| Monthly count of how many people tapped your number | Yes | Yes | Yes |
| Off the list on request, same day | Yes | Yes | Yes |
| A moisture number, published with the date yours, taken your way, signed by you | — | Yes | Yes |
| The Guarantee mark, and a number that's yours No. 001 upward, in order of joining, permanently | — | Yes | Yes |
| A price on your row, dated, that you tell us when it changes optional at every rung — the rule. We will not copy a price off your website, even though some of you publish one. We can't keep it current, and a stale number here becomes an argument in a customer's driveway that you never agreed to have | — | Yes | Yes |
| What's in stock this week, and species available | — | Yes | Yes |
| Reviews from buyers, and a public right of reply | — | Yes | Yes |
| A page you can send a hesitant customer to | — | Yes | Yes |
| Our own meter reading, next to yours taken unannounced, published whatever it says | — | — | Yes |
| The numbered badge for your truck and your sign | — | — | Yes |
| First refusal on referrals in your area | — | — | Yes |
| Online order intake with a map pin of the drop spot not built yet — next season, Verified only | — | — | Later |
| What it costs, 2026–27 season | Free | Free | Free |
| What it costs after that | No charge planned and any change gets published here 60 days first | A flat fee per cord | That, plus the audit fee |
Why the middle rung exists at all
Because the top one asks a lot. Signing a standing right for somebody to turn up at your yard unannounced with a meter is a real thing to sign, and a seller who has been doing this honestly for twenty years is entitled to think it's a bit much from a business that started last year.
So there's a rung under it. You tell us your number, you sign that you'll make it right if a load misses it, and we publish both. No visit, no appointment, nobody in your yard. If you're straight with your customers already, you're describing what you do on the phone every week — the only new part is that it's written down where a stranger can read it.
Most sellers should start here. Plenty should stop here. The top rung is for the ones who want the argument settled by somebody who isn't them.
Look at the directory right now
Nineteen rows, and the moisture column is empty on all nineteen. That's not a gap we're embarrassed by, it's the state of this trade written down.
Whoever fills it first has the only row in three counties with a number in it, on the page a buyer is looking at while deciding who to call. That advantage is largest when the column is emptiest, which is today, and it shrinks every time somebody else signs.
We would rather say that plainly than dress it up. Go and look at the column →
Two
The South Jersey
Firewood Guarantee
This is the whole thing. It is short on purpose — a seller should be able to read it to a customer over the phone, and a customer should be able to hold a seller to it without a lawyer. Send anyone straight to this section: sjfirewood.com/standards.html#guarantee
A seller carrying this mark has told us, in writing:
- The moisture standard they sell to — under 20%, under 25%, or green and honestly labeled green — and that they'll say which one before you buy, not after.
- They meter their own stacks the published way: at least six pieces from different depths, split open, meter on the fresh inside face, highest reading is the number. They send it to us with the date and we publish it under their name.
- Every load comes with the delivery ticket New Jersey already requires — their name and address, the quantity in cords, the price, the date, and any quality claim they made, including the word seasoned.
- They sell in cords and fractions of a cord. No face cords, no racks, no truckloads — in the advertisement as much as at the sale.
- If a load misses the number they gave you, they make it right within seven days. Top it up, swap it, or refund it. Their choice which. Not their choice whether.
- Reviews stand. They can reply to any review in public under their own name. They cannot have one taken down, and leaning on a customer about one ends the listing that day.
What happens when a seller doesn't
We publish it. The Guarantee comes off their row, on this site, with the date and one plain sentence about what happened, and it stays visible for a year.
That's the whole enforcement mechanism and we're not going to dress it up as more. We can't fine anybody and we can't make anybody refund you. What we can do is make it permanently, publicly expensive to break a promise you made in writing — which, in a trade that runs almost entirely on word of mouth, is not nothing.
What the Guarantee is not
It is not our test. We did not meter that wood. A Guaranteed seller's number is a number they took, on their yard, with their meter.
What we added is that it's written down, dated, published under their name, and backed by a consequence they agreed to in advance. That is more than anyone else in this trade offers and less than a verification, and both halves of that sentence matter.
When we have metered it ourselves, the row says Verified and our number sits next to theirs with both dates. Two different words, because they're two different things. How that works →
Three
What you actually sign
The Guarantee above is the promise in plain English. This is the same thing with the administrative parts attached. Nothing here is unusual for someone already selling honest wood, which is the point — it's only hard to sign if you were rounding the truth.
Six commitments, to be Guaranteed
A moisture number, in writing
You pick your own standard — under 20%, under 25%, or green and honestly labeled as green — and we publish it beside your name. You don't have to sell dry wood. You have to say which one you're selling.
You meter your own stacks, and sign the number
Every lot you put up for sale gets a reading, taken the published way — six pieces, split open, meter on the fresh face, highest one wins — sent to us with the date. We publish it as yours. A seller who won't put a number in writing doesn't get the mark.
Full measure, legally named
Cords and fractions of a cord only. No “face cord,” no “rack,” no “truckload” — those terms are prohibited in New Jersey in advertising as well as in sale, and we'll delist over it. Why that rule exists →
A delivery ticket, every time
Your name, your address, the quantity, the species if you claimed one, and the moisture standard you committed to. New Jersey requires this of the seller already. Plenty of sellers don't bother.
You make it right
If a load misses the standard you signed, you fix it — top it up, swap it, or refund it — within seven days. Your choice which. Not optional whether. This is the sentence the whole mark rests on.
Reviews stand
You don't get to delete a bad one. You get to reply to it, in public, under your own name, and we publish the reply next to it. Pressuring a customer over a review is a one-strike delisting.
Two more, to be Verified
We can show up, unannounced, any time
A standing right of entry to your stacks in business hours, no appointment and no notice, for as long as you're listed. Not a schedule you can plan around. We publish what we find whether it's good or bad, and refusing a visit ends the top rung that day — though you keep the Guarantee if you're still honoring it.
You tell us when a sale happens
Within seven days of delivering to a customer who came through this site: the date, the quantity, and how to reach them. That's how we know to ask them how it went — and once fees start, it's how you get invoiced, so nobody has to chase it.
And you get a badge, with a number on it
A verified supplier gets a numbered badge for their truck, their sign and their own website. The number is the point. Anyone can look up Verified Supplier No. 001 on this site and see who it is, what they committed to, when we last checked their stacks and what we found.
Somebody who doesn't sell this wood came and metered it, and published what they found where you can read it. That's all the badge means, and it's enough.
The badge carries a year and expires with it, so it has to be earned again. It is not for sale at any price and it comes down the day a listing does.
Guarantee numbers and badge numbers both run in order of joining and they're yours permanently. No. 003 will always mean something No. 031 can't. Nobody already listed has any say over who else gets in — the criteria are published above and they're the same for everybody.
Things listed sellers get that aren't on the website
- Your tap count, monthly. How many people pressed your phone number on this site. Every seller gets it, including the ones who never sign anything.
- Surplus and shortage matching. Short on seasoned oak in February? Sitting on eight cords you can't move in April? Tell us and we put the two of you together. Guaranteed and Verified.
- Your audit results before we publish them, with two business days to respond. Verified only.
- First refusal on referrals in your area, in the order the calls come in. Verified only.
- No group chat, and no talking about prices. Every match is made one-to-one through us. Two competitors comparing prices in a room is a federal problem, and we're not creating the room.
Four
They meter. We audit.
This is the top rung, and it's the part that's worth money, so here's exactly what it is. No mystery, no proprietary process, no lab.
The method — the same one for everybody
A pin-type moisture meter, a hatchet, and a notebook. Pull at least six pieces from different depths and different corners of the stack — not the six facing the driveway — split each one open, and read the meter on the fresh inside face, right away.
This is where most wrong numbers come from, and they're honest mistakes. The weathered outside of a split, and the cut end of a log, both read far drier than the wood actually is — so a seller who meters the outside gets a low number and believes it. We teach the method on the first visit, and we publish it here so anybody can check anybody, including us.
The number that gets published
The highest reading, not the average. An average hides the wet piece, and the wet piece is the one that hisses, smolders and lines your chimney. If five pieces read 16% and one reads 28%, that stack is a 28.
Who took it is printed next to it
A supplier meters their own lots and sends us the number, dated. We publish it as theirs, in their name, labeled that way — and beside it, whatever we found the last time we walked their yard, and whatever buyers with meters have reported since. Three numbers, all dated, never averaged together and never blurred into one.
That's deliberate. A seller's own number is a claim; ours is a check. This whole site exists because the industry's claims about moisture can't be taken at face value, so we're not about to launder somebody's self-report into a verification by putting it in the wrong column.
What we don't claim
We don't test every piece of every load and we're not going to say we do. That's a verified supplier, not a verified load, and the difference is worth being straight about.
What gets published
| Field | What it means |
|---|---|
| Committed to | The standard they signed |
| Seller's reading | Their number, their lot, their date. A claim |
| Our audit | What we measured, and when. A check |
| Pieces sampled | How many were split. Six is the floor |
| Buyer-reported | What customers with meters found. An experience |
| Agreement | Whether the numbers line up |
A Guaranteed supplier shows a seller's number and a blank where ours goes. We'd rather show you an honest blank than a badge that means nothing.
Why unannounced beats often
A visit on a schedule tests the yard on the day of the visit. A visit that could be any day tests it every day, because the only way to pass one is to be right all the time.
So we stopped promising a number of visits and started guaranteeing the right to make one. Every Verified supplier gets audited at least once a season. After that it's whoever the evidence points at — and nobody gets told which they are.
A meter is about $38
Buy one. Check us, check them, check anybody. A customer who can read a meter is a customer nobody in this county can sell wet wood to, and that includes us. We'd rather compete in that market. We don't sell them — here's where to get one →
What sends us out to a yard
Published, because a supplier who knows the triggers can avoid all of them by just doing the work — which is the entire point.
A buyer said something
A review reporting wet wood, a short load, or no delivery ticket. One report doesn't condemn anybody. It does put a visit on the calendar.
The numbers look too good
Real stacks vary — 14, 17, 22, 19. A season of readings that all land on 18% isn't a well-run yard, it's a number somebody is writing down from memory. We keep every reading and we watch the spread.
The reports stopped
No readings and no completed orders for a month in season. Usually it means they're busy. Sometimes it means something else.
It's their first season
New suppliers get seen more, and they're told so before they sign. Nothing personal — we don't have a track record to reason about yet.
The calendar turned
Everybody gets at least one audit a season regardless of how clean their record is. A right nobody exercises isn't a right, it's a sentence in a contract.
Their name came up
Drawn at random, a few times a season, from everyone on the top rung. This is the one that makes the other five work — there is no clean record good enough to buy a guarantee we won't turn up.
Five
How reviews work
Review sections are worthless when the business being reviewed can delete the bad ones. Here's the policy, so you can judge whether ours are worth anything — published now, while there are none, which is the only time a review policy can be written without an interest in the outcome.
How we ask, and what we pay you for it
Three days after a delivery a supplier tells us about, you get one text, from a person, with two questions: did the wood burn like it should, and did you get a delivery ticket with the seller's name on it.
Everybody gets the same message. We don't check how it went first and only ask the people we think are happy — that would make the whole section worthless, and it's the thing the FTC's review rule is aimed at.
Nothing is on offer for answering. No discount, no credit, no entry into anything. We used to plan on a small discount and dropped it, because the moment a review is worth money to the person writing it, the only honest thing left to do is disclose that on every single one — and you'd still be right to wonder. Good, bad or a complaint, we publish it and you get nothing for it but the next person knowing.
We also publish how many buyers answered, not just what they said. “14 of 22 replied” tells you more than a five-star average from three people.
A real person, checked by text
Nothing publishes until we've texted the number on the form and had a reply. Where a buyer has their delivery ticket number, the review is published as a documented purchase. We don't claim to prove purchases we weren't party to.
Nothing gets deleted
Not by the supplier, not by us. A review comes down only if it names a private person, is threatening, or the reviewer asks us to remove their own words. Removals are logged and the count is shown on the supplier's row.
The reply is public
Suppliers can answer any review in their own name and we publish it underneath, unedited. A supplier who answers a bad review well tells you more than five good ones.
A bad load is a Guarantee test
A review saying a load missed the seller's own number starts the seven-day clock. Make it right and it's a note. Refuse and the Guarantee comes off, publicly, with the date.
No paid placement
Ordering on the supplier list is by area and readiness, never by what anybody paid. Nobody can buy a higher position, a badge, or a better description.
Disputes get a date
If a supplier says a review is wrong, we ask both sides for the delivery ticket and publish what we can confirm. If we can't confirm either version, we say that under the review.
Six
Who moderates, and by what rules
Every review is read by a person before it goes up — the same person, every time — not a rotating team and not a filter. A human moderator is only trustworthy if the rules they moderate by are published, so here they are.
What gets checked
Nothing is published automatically. Every review is read by a person and verified by text first:
- A working cell number — we text it and wait for a reply before anything goes up. Cheap for a real buyer, expensive for a bot or a competitor.
- A delivery ticket number, where the buyer has one — New Jersey requires the seller to provide one. A review backed by a ticket is published as a documented purchase; the rest are published as what they are.
- Detail that matches reality — a date, a quantity, a species mix. Somebody who wasn't there gets these vague.
What this does not do is prove the purchase. We're not party to the sale, so in most cases we can't. We'd rather say that plainly than imply a check we don't perform.
He may text you to check a detail before publishing. That's a verification call, not a negotiation, and it happens on good reviews as often as bad ones.
The only reasons a review is held back
This is the complete list. If it isn't on here, it goes up.
- Nobody answers the verification text, so we can't confirm a person
- It names a private individual, or contains somebody's personal details
- It's threatening, or abusive beyond the point of being about the wood
- It's a duplicate of one already up
- The person who wrote it asks us to take it down
The moderation log
We publish the count, every season, so you can see how much is getting held back and why:
| Season | In | Published | Held, and why |
|---|---|---|---|
| Example | 142 | 138 | 3 unverified · 1 named a private person |
A moderator who publishes his own reject rate is a lot easier to check than one who doesn't. The row above is a format sample — the first real one goes up at the end of the first season.
What we do with your details
- Published: first name and town
- Never published: surname, address, phone, email
- Never given to the seller. They get the review and a right of reply, nothing else
- Kept 12 months in case of a dispute, then deleted
- Never sold, never used to market anything to you
Seven
What costs you the mark
Some of these are one strike. That's deliberate — a standard with no consequence is a marketing sentence. Losing the Guarantee does not remove you from the directory: your name and number stay, the mark comes off, and the reason is published beside it.
| What happened | What we do | Strikes |
|---|---|---|
| Missing your number and refusing to make it right within seven days | Guarantee removed, publicly, with the date and one sentence about what happened. Stays visible a year | One |
| A reading that was never taken — a number reported without metering | Guarantee and badge removed the same day, publicly. A wrong number honestly taken is corrected instead, and the method retaught | One |
| Short measure — a cord that isn't a cord | Delisted, publicly, and we tell the customer to call NJ Weights & Measures | One |
| Pressuring a customer over a review | Delisted. This one isn't negotiable | One |
| Refusing a yard visit (Verified only) | Top rung suspended the same day, marked “declined verification.” You keep the Guarantee if you're still honoring it | One |
| Selling by “face cord” or “rack” | Written warning and a week to fix every listing and sign. Then the mark comes off | Two |
| No delivery ticket | Written warning; second time, the mark comes off | Two |
| Missing your moisture standard but making it right | Published as a note on your row with the date. Two in a season and the mark comes off | Two in a season |
| Not answering your phone for two weeks in season | Moved to “not taking orders” until you tell us otherwise. Not a strike — people get busy | — |
Eight
Who pays us, and how much
This season: nobody pays us anything for a listing, at any rung
Listed, Guaranteed and Verified are all free for the 2026–27 season. Not a discount, not an introductory rate with a renewal buried in it — there is no invoice, because there's nothing yet worth invoicing for. This site has no traffic history and no track record, and charging for an audience nobody has proven exists would be the wrong way to start.
What we're buying with a free season is the thing we actually need: real moisture readings, real prices and real reviews from real yards. That's worth more to us right now than anybody's money.
What we commit to about later. Fees get published on this page, with the date, 60 days before anybody is charged one. Whatever a founding supplier signs at is what they keep for as long as they stay listed. And no fee will ever be charged on a sale that didn't happen.
After the free season, the supplier pays us a referral fee out of their own price. The buyer pays them exactly what they'd have paid calling them cold.
We're not a merchant on those loads and we don't want to be. The supplier sells the wood, bills the customer, writes the delivery ticket with their name on it, and carries the legal duties that come with being the seller. We hold the standard and publish what we find.
We never handle a buyer's payment for wood we didn't sell them. No deposit to us, no card on this site, no invoice from us for somebody else's cord. If a page ever asks you to pay South Jersey Firewood for a network order, it isn't us — close it and call the supplier.
Why this matters to a buyer: a middleman who buys and resells has a reason to push you toward whoever gave him the best margin this week. We don't have that reason, and we've structured it so we can't develop one.
What we will never do
- Charge a supplier to be listed, or to be listed higher
- Take a fee from a buyer on top of the supplier's price
- Sell firewood ourselves, at any price, ever
- Buy a cord at a discount and resell it at retail
- Hide a supplier's phone number or make anyone go through us
- Sign an exclusive that stops a supplier selling direct
- Publish a verification we didn't actually do
- Charge for a result. The audit fee buys the visit, not the number that comes out of it
If any of that changes, it changes on this page first, with the date.
Why the top rung costs more
Because it's the one with a day of somebody's labor in it. Guaranteed is paperwork we hold and publish. Verified is a truck, a drive, an hour splitting and metering somebody else's wood, and a write-up. That cost is real and it lands on us, so it gets priced separately rather than spread across sellers who never get audited.
Read that sentence carefully, because it's the one that could go wrong. The higher fee buys the audit. It does not buy the outcome. A Verified supplier who meters at 28% gets 28% published, with the date, the same afternoon — they paid for a test they can fail, which is the exact opposite of buying a badge.
If we ever find ourselves in a position where a paying supplier's bad reading is inconvenient to publish, the answer is to publish it and lose the supplier. There is no version of this business that survives the other choice.
- Listed — no charge, no agreement, and we have no plan to change that
- Guaranteed — free this season. Then a flat fee per cord on sales that came through this site. Never a percentage, because a percentage gives us a reason to want your cord to cost more
- Verified — free this season. Then the Guaranteed fee plus a fee for the audit itself
The actual numbers aren't set, and we'd rather leave that visible than print one we'd have to change. They go here first, 60 days ahead.
What we will commit to, in writing. Any price we ever charge gets published on this page before it starts, never applies to a season already underway, and never changes where you sit on the list. Nobody's row gets worse for saying no. What we won't do is promise “free forever” on a business that is two weeks old — that is a promise nobody in our position can honestly make, and you should be suspicious of anyone who makes it.
The three things we actually get paid for
Referral fees, from suppliers
A flat fee per cord, agreed before they're listed and the same for everyone who signed in the same year. Never a percentage that moves with the price. Nothing this season.
Mobile splitting, from you
Our splitter, our afternoon, our invoice. Straightforward work we do ourselves and charge for by the cord. Your wood stays yours — we never buy it, take it away, or sell it on.
Fire kits, shipped
The starter kits we pack and post. Here we are the seller and we say so. No firewood in the box — we don't sell it and we don't move it.
Nine
How we know an order happened
Most referral businesses answer this with “we hope they tell us.” We don't have to.
Two records, one of them yours
We don't take orders and we don't broker them. A buyer finds a seller on the list, calls them, and the sale is between the two of them. There is no code, no account and no tracking link, because there is no transaction of ours to track.
So there are exactly two records, and both are honest about what they are. The supplier reports the sale within seven days under §2.6. And we count how many people tapped their phone number on this site, which is measured on our own analytics and belongs to us.
Neither proves the other. Taps are not sales, and a supplier's report is their own word. What the two together do give is a shape — a listing getting three hundred taps a month and reporting no sales is a conversation worth having, and a listing getting eight taps and reporting six sales probably has a very good reputation already.
The tap count goes to every seller on the list, free, whether they've signed anything or not. It's their number about their business and withholding it to force a signature would be a shabby way to run this.
Things we deliberately don't do
- Put a tracking phone number in front of a supplier's real one
- Ask a buyer to mention us to the seller so we get paid
- Follow anyone around the internet with a pixel to prove the sale
- Make a buyer go through us to reach a seller
- Text a buyer once, three days after delivery, and take the answer at face value
Buyers owe us nothing for any of this. The list is free to read, the sellers' own numbers are on it, and we would rather people called them directly than went through anybody — us included.
Ten
“I don't want my prices on the internet”
Fair, and it's the first thing most sellers say. Here's the rule, why it exists, and the three ways to satisfy it without pinning yourself to a number you can't honor.
The rule: we only hold prices we publish
If you give us a price, it goes on the page. If you'd rather it wasn't public, don't give it to us — we won't keep a private list.
That sounds like a technicality and it isn't. A directory operator quietly collecting current prices from a dozen competing sellers, holding them off the page, and using them to decide who gets sent which customer is exactly the arrangement competition regulators are wary of. Published to everyone, a price is just a price — the same information you'd give anyone who called. Collected and kept private among competitors, it's something else entirely.
So the public version is the safe version, for you as much as for us. There is no third option where we know your number and nobody else does.
Three ways to answer, all of them fine
The real objection usually isn't secrecy — it's that firewood doesn't have one price. Species, distance, stacking and how ready the wood is all move it. So a single figure isn't required. Any honest answer to “what does it cost” counts:
- A range. “$340–390 a cord delivered, depending on species and distance.”
- A starting price. “From $340 a cord.”
- A price with its conditions. “$360 delivered within 10 miles, $3 a mile beyond, $80 to stack.”
The figures above are only there to show the shape of an answer. They are not our estimate of anything, not a suggestion, and not a number we got from another seller. We have no opinion about what you should charge and we are careful not to develop one.
Every price carries the date you gave it to us, the same as the moisture readings. A stale price is worse than no price, and dating it means nobody can hold you to a number from October in February. It is also why we will not lift a price off your website — we would have no idea when it changed, and the first person to find out would be a customer in your yard.
And if you still say no
A price is not required at any rung. You can be Guaranteed, and you can be Verified, without publishing one. You keep the audit, the readings, the mark, the badge and the reviews — everything that's about the wood.
Your row will say “Price on request.” Not as a penalty and not with any commentary attached. It's a fact about what we were given, exactly like “Listed” is a fact about where we've been.
What happens next isn't up to us. A buyer comparing four rows will call the ones with numbers first, and most sellers who start on “price on request” don't stay there. We'd rather let that play out than make it a rule.
What we will never do: set your price, suggest one, tell you what anybody else charges, or put you in a room with other suppliers to discuss it. Your price is yours. We publish it and we don't have an opinion about it.
Why we push on this at all
Because “call six numbers and hope” is the problem this site exists to fix, and a directory where every row says “call for price” is just the phone book with better typography. The moisture reading is what nobody else has. The price is what makes somebody use the page. We need both to be worth anyone's time.
For sellers
Take a rung
No charge this season, both tiers, no exclusivity and nothing owed on a sale. You sell to the customer directly, you bill them, you write the delivery ticket. Pick the rung you're comfortable with — and if that's the middle one, nobody comes to your yard.
Apply for a listing Free. Pick Guaranteed or Verified — No. 001 is still open at both.
What we check before the mark goes on
- A written moisture commitment. You name the standard you'll sell to and we publish it next to your name. That's the whole point of the list.
- That you can take a reading properly. Six pieces, different spots, split open, fresh face. Twenty minutes on a phone call — the method is the only technical part of any of this.
- That a “cord” from you measures 128 cubic feet stacked
- That you advertise in cords, not truckloads or face cords — New Jersey prohibits those terms
- Written receipt with your name and address, the buyer's, the date, quantity, species and price
- A current NJDA spotted lanternfly permit — it's free and every NJ county is in the quarantine zone
None of that is us being difficult. It's the baseline the state already requires, and most of the complaints customers have about firewood sellers trace back to one of those lines.
Still reading?
Then you're the sort we want.
Nobody gets to the bottom of a page like this unless they already sell honest wood and are tired of competing with people who don't.